Comments

egg · by egg 03-08-2010

Quote:

A Detention Bill You Ought to Read More Carefully
MAR 5 2010, 3:40 PM ET

Why is the national security community treating the "Enemy Belligerent, Interrogation, Detention, and Prosecution Act of 2010," introduced by Sens. John McCain and Joseph Lieberman on Thursday as a standard proposal, as a simple response to the administration's choices in the aftermath of the Christmas Day bombing attempt? A close reading of the bill suggests it would allow the U.S. military to detain U.S. citizens without trial indefinitely in the U.S. based on suspected activity. Read the bill here, and then read the summarized points after the jump.
According to the summary, the bill sets out a comprehensive policy for the detention, interrogation and trial of suspected enemy belligerents who are believed to have engaged in hostilities against the United States by requiring these individuals to be held in military custody, interrogated for their intelligence value and not provided with a Miranda warning.

(There is no distinction between U.S. persons--visa holders or citizens--and non-U.S. persons.)

It would require these "belligerents" to be coded as "high-value detainee[s]" to be held in military custody and interrogated for their intelligence value by a High-Value Detainee Interrogation Team established by the president. (The H.I.G., of course, was established to bring a sophisticated interrogation capacity to the federal justice system.)

Any suspected unprivileged enemy belligerents considered a "high-value detainee" shall not be provided with a Miranda warning.

The bill asks the President to determine criteria for designating an individual as a "high-value detainee" if he/she: (1) poses a threat of an attack on civilians or civilian facilities within the U.S. or U.S. facilities abroad; (2) poses a threat to U.S. military personnel or U.S. military facilities; (3) potential intelligence value; (4) is a member of al Qaeda or a terrorist group affiliated with al Qaeda or (5) such other matters as the President considers appropriate. The President must submit the regulations and guidance to the appropriate committees of Congress no later than 60 days after enactment.

To the extent possible, the High-Value Detainee Interrogation Team must make a preliminary determination whether the detainee is an unprivileged enemy belligerent within 48 hours of taking detainee into custody.

The High-Value Detainee Interrogation Team must submit its determination to the Secretary of Defense and the Attorney General after consultation with the Director of National Intelligence, the Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, and the Director of the Central Intelligence Agency. The Secretary of Defense and the Attorney General make a final determination and report the determination to the President and the appropriate committees of Congress. In the case of any disagreement between the Secretary of Defense and the Attorney General, the President will make the determination.

Note that the president himself doesn't get to make the call.

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/...arefully/37116

For Those of You Interested in Reading the Bill:
http://assets.theatlantic.com/static...s/ARM10090.pdf

Ra187 · 03-08-2010, 04:45 PM

all i can really say right now after reading this, is what the fuck? and fuck this getting the fuck outta this fucking country.

pardon all the fucketry

egg · 03-08-2010, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ra187

all i can really say right now after reading this, is what the fuck? and fuck this getting the fuck outta this fucking country.

pardon all the fucketry

No, please, fucking continue. If there was ever a time for fucketry, now would be it.
Did you notice, the motherfucking President doesn't get to make the motherfucking call? It's like the SS is running the show.

Ra187 · 03-08-2010, 04:54 PM

well if you havent noticed the president is more of just a pawn...he really doesnt make the decisions anymore...but fuck this sucks, we have to watch out for sure now....i save REVOLUTION and fuck the government fuck em fuck fuck fuck em...those greedy rich fucks and do nothing and get paid just to hassle the citizens of the country....fuck em fucks

skunk · 03-08-2010, 04:56 PM

Sounds like an increase in patriot act-esque powers. Beautiful.

Jack will be right about US citizens being detained indefinitely if this bill passes.

And go fucking figure it was co-sponsored by those douchebags McCain and Lieberman.

egg · 03-08-2010, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skunk

Sounds like an increase in patriot act-esque powers. Beautiful.

Jack will be right about US citizens being detained indefinitely if this bill passes.

And go fucking figure it was co-sponsored by those douchebags McCain and Lieberman.

Zactly. They're all in it together.

I know the Pres is just a pawn but this is very in your face. Unfortunately, I doubt it will get enough in the faces of the general public for any real outcry to be heard. This basically proves that there's someone behind the curtain running things.

Hazelnut · 03-08-2010, 05:09 PM

I don't like how they sneaked

Quote:

(3) potential intelligence value;

in as identifying factor of a "high-value detainee".

How much more vague could they be? That clause could be used indiscriminately.

skunk · 03-08-2010, 05:10 PM

Spam this far and wide, tell your neighbors, tell your friends, make sure your family knows.

Then have them all contact their respective lawmakers and tell them to vote no on this piece of trash.

egg · 03-08-2010, 05:14 PM

The vaguer the better for these people. That way they can make it up as they go along. Yeah, we really should get the word out and write our Congressmen. Make them actually do some real work.

Ra187 · 03-08-2010, 05:14 PM

yes yes we should

edit:
add: great idea and lets get movin on this

egg · 03-08-2010, 05:18 PM

Do you guys actually want to get a petition together?

skunk · 03-08-2010, 05:21 PM

That's a heck of a lot better than armchair activism the likes of SHTF and ATS.

I went to a town hall meeting on medical cannabis the other night, and I plan on canvassing and spreading the word when I get my lazy ass off this couch.

Ra187 · 03-08-2010, 05:26 PM

i say we get a petition goin.....try to get some facebook and twitter shit goin on too...thats how to reach the masses these days

egg · 03-08-2010, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skunk

That's a heck of a lot better than armchair activism the likes of SHTF and ATS.

That's the truth.
Does anyone know if signatures have to be the original on a petition . I'm guessing yes. Makes it harder for all of us to do something together.

skunk · 03-08-2010, 05:27 PM

Each person gets a handful of signatures in their area and submits it to their local representative.

Hazelnut · 03-08-2010, 05:27 PM

Page 8 of the pdf

Quote:

(3) PARAMOUNT PURPOSE OF INTERROGA
TIONS.—The regulations required by this subsection
shall provide that the paramount purpose of the in
terrogation of high-value detainees under this Act
shall be the protection of United States civilians and
United States civilian facilities through thorough
and professional interrogation for intelligence purposes.

This is good. No?

skunk · 03-08-2010, 05:29 PM

That's like saying cops always respect citizens' miranda rights (which is quickly being eroded), and don't abuse people they are interrogating.

Shit happens.

egg · 03-08-2010, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hazelnut

Page 8 of the pdf

[/B]This is good. No?

Of course, in theory. But talk about vague. So, when they arrest and detain you without any habeus corpus, they only have to say, "it's for the protection of the public at large."
"How is that?"
"We're interrogating the prisoner right now to find out?"

I suppose if I trusted these a-holes enough I would be fine with the wording.

egg · 03-08-2010, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skunk

That's like saying cops always respect citizens' miranda rights (which is quickly being eroded), and don't abuse people they are interrogating.

Shit happens.

Exactly.

Hazelnut · 03-08-2010, 05:36 PM

Here's another part.

Quote:

SEC. 5. DETENTION WITHOUT TRIAL OF UNPRIVILEGED
11 ENEMY BELLIGERENTS.
12 An individual, including a citizen of the United
13 States, determined to be an unprivileged enemy belligerent
14 under section 3(c)(2) in a manner which satisfies Article
15 5 of the Geneva Convention Relative to the Treatment of
16 Prisoners of War may be detained without criminal
17 charges and without trial for the duration of hostilities
18 against the United States or its coalition partners in which
19 the individual has engaged, or which the individual has
20 purposely and materially supported, consistent with the
21 law of war and any authorization for the use of military
22 force provided by Congress pertaining to such hostilities.

What is in a manner which satisfies Article 5 of the Geneva Convention Relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War?

egg · 03-08-2010, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hazelnut

Here's another part.

What is in a manner which satisfies Article 5 of the Geneva Convention Relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War?

For one, there would be no waterboarding. No torture at all. Although, I believe our shit-fuck law-makers decided waterboarding wasn't tortured. Anyway, I'll try to find you the exact wording but it's basically imprisonment that isn't harsh. Food, water, decent cell and no torture.

boycotteverything · 03-08-2010, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hazelnut

Here's another part.

What is in a manner which satisfies Article 5 of the Geneva Convention Relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War?

that's comforting. will you personally be enforcing it? oh no- that would be the kindly and compassionate Lex.

boycotteverything · 03-08-2010, 05:42 PM

Oh joy!

Hazelnut · 03-08-2010, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by egg

For one, there would be no waterboarding. No torture at all. Although, I believe our shit-fuck law-makers decided waterboarding wasn't tortured. Anyway, I'll try to find you the exact wording but it's basically imprisonment that isn't harsh. Food, water, decent cell and no torture.

Thanks egg.

skunk · 03-08-2010, 05:43 PM

Well considering waterboarding violates the Geneva convention (and is also illegal under US law), I wouldn't hold my breathe with this one.

Criminals have become commonplace among our po-lie-ticians.

egg · 03-08-2010, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Art. 5. Every prisoner of war is required to declare, if he is interrogated on the subject, his true names and rank, or his regimental number.
If he infringes this rule, he exposes himself to a restriction of the privileges accorded to prisoners of his category.
No pressure shall be exercised on prisoners to obtain information regarding the situation in their armed forces or their country. Prisoners who refuse to reply may not be threatened, insulted, or exposed to unpleasantness or disadvantages of any kind whatsoever.
If, by reason of his physical or mental condition, a prisoner is incapable of stating his identity, he shall be handed over to the Medical Service.

Here's the whole Geneva convention of 1929. Remember, there's been more than one geneva convention. This is the one we're worried about here:

http://www.icrc.org/IHL.NSF/FULL/305?OpenDocument

boycotteverything · 03-08-2010, 05:48 PM

it may be illegal but it's done all the time by our enlightened troops and intelligence agencies. ...and with the support of a certain segment of the American population.

Hazelnut · 03-08-2010, 05:48 PM

No. In the pdf, definitions section, it specifically names the 1947 Geneva convention...has it changed?

Quote:

GENEVA CONVENTION RELATIVE TO THE
7 TREATMENT OF PRISONERS OF WAR.—The term
8 ‘‘Geneva Convention Relative to the Treatment of
9 Prisoners of War’’ means the Geneva Convention
10 Relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War, done
11 at Geneva August 12, 1949 (6 UST 3316).

My bad. 1949

boycotteverything · 03-08-2010, 05:48 PM

just say no

egg · 03-08-2010, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Art 5. The present Convention shall apply to the persons referred to in Article 4 from the time they fall into the power of the enemy and until their final release and repatriation.

Should any doubt arise as to whether persons, having committed a belligerent act and having fallen into the hands of the enemy, belong to any of the categories enumerated in Article 4, such persons shall enjoy the protection of the present Convention until such time as their status has been determined by a competent tribunal.

All right, this is the '49. I believe article 5 from '29 still stood (and stands) for the treatment of enemy combatants.

Here's 1949:
http://www.ikrk.org/ihl.nsf/7c4d08d9...25641e004a9e68

skunk · 03-08-2010, 05:54 PM

Terrorists aren't enemy combatants though. They're subhuman devils, itching to destroy our freedoms here in the US.

They hate you, what are you gonna do about it?

egg · 03-08-2010, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skunk

Terrorists aren't enemy combatants though. They're subhuman devils, itching to destroy our freedoms here in the US.

They hate you, what are you gonna do about it?

Ha! Yeah. Well, I guess they're gonna treat them the same way as enemy combatants according to this legislation.

As for what I'm going to do about it, I'm trying to figure out how to stop lightning striking people and car accidents. Both of which claim the lives of more Americans than terrorism.

I am especially worried about iatrogenic disease, the third most fatal disease in the US as I am far more likely to die of it than a terrorist strike.

http://www.yourmedicaldetective.com/public/335.cfm

Hazelnut · 03-08-2010, 06:08 PM

Holy shit. I never heard of this term but boy do I know the results of it.

Quote:

Iatrogenic Disease is defined as a disease that is caused by medical treatment.
Read major headlines around the globe on this serious disease

egg · 03-08-2010, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hazelnut

Holy shit. I never heard of this term but boy do I know the results of it.

Yup. One of us should do a thread on it. It's pretty scary shit. Shows you how you'd better take good enough care of yourself so that you never find yourself in a hospital or under a doctor's care. You can end up much worse off than when you went for help.

Hazelnut · 03-08-2010, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by egg

Yup. One of us should do a thread on it. It's pretty scary shit. Shows you how you'd better take good enough care of yourself so that you never find yourself in a hospital or under a doctor's care. You can end up much worse off than when you went for help.

Since 2004, My step-father, mother, father-in-law and father all died under extended medical care. My oldest brother is on his last lap in the medical circuit.

All I know is that anyone who has to spend twenty minutes a day getting their "medication" together fits that description. How on earth can anyone become healthy with all those drugs pumping through their systems constantly?

Do a thread egg.

egg · 03-08-2010, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hazelnut

Since 2004, My step-father, mother, father-in-law and father all died under extended medical care. My oldest brother is on his last lap in the medical circuit.

All I know is that anyone who has to spend twenty minutes a day getting their "medication" together fits that description. How on earth can anyone become healthy with all those drugs pumping through their systems constantly?

Do a thread egg.

I'm sorry for your losses. Seriously. I've had a couple it sucks.

On a less serious note, I've never felt more guilted into doing a thread.

I'll do one. Give me a day o two.

Hazelnut · 03-08-2010, 06:27 PM

giggling. Sorry egg. I hate to think you think I think I can manipulate you.

egg · 03-08-2010, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hazelnut

giggling. Sorry egg. I hate to think you think I think I can manipulate you.

That's far too much thinking.
If you weren't married, I'm sure you could manipulate the hell out of me. I am horny as fuck. It's been a dry year so far.

Hazelnut · 03-08-2010, 06:33 PM

uhm. Taken off guard. Unexpected input. Computing....

MissSilver · 03-08-2010, 06:33 PM

The Geneva convention... Isn't it the thing written on paper that was suspended along with habeas corpus?

03-08-2010, 04:45 PM	#2
Ra187 hashstronomer Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Helion prime Posts: 477	Re: Your American Citizenship Takes Another Hit all i can really say right now after reading this, is what the fuck? and fuck this getting the fuck outta this fucking country. pardon all the fucketry __________________ life is harmless but love will kill "I'm not gonna learn how to play the guitar very well, im just gonna learn how to play it very cool." Eye "In questions of science the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use." --- Galileo Galilei

03-08-2010, 04:54 PM	#4
Ra187 hashstronomer Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Helion prime Posts: 477	Re: Your American Citizenship Takes Another Hit well if you havent noticed the president is more of just a pawn...he really doesnt make the decisions anymore...but fuck this sucks, we have to watch out for sure now....i save REVOLUTION and fuck the government fuck em fuck fuck fuck em...those greedy rich fucks and do nothing and get paid just to hassle the citizens of the country....fuck em fucks __________________ life is harmless but love will kill "I'm not gonna learn how to play the guitar very well, im just gonna learn how to play it very cool." Eye "In questions of science the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use." --- Galileo Galilei

03-08-2010, 04:56 PM	#5
skunk Custom User Title Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 16,547	Re: Your American Citizenship Takes Another Hit Sounds like an increase in patriot act-esque powers. Beautiful. Jack will be right about US citizens being detained indefinitely if this bill passes. And go fucking figure it was co-sponsored by those douchebags McCain and Lieberman.

03-08-2010, 05:10 PM	#8
skunk Custom User Title Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 16,547	Re: Your American Citizenship Takes Another Hit Spam this far and wide, tell your neighbors, tell your friends, make sure your family knows. Then have them all contact their respective lawmakers and tell them to vote no on this piece of trash.

03-08-2010, 05:14 PM	#9
egg Free Range Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 5,695	Re: Your American Citizenship Takes Another Hit The vaguer the better for these people. That way they can make it up as they go along. Yeah, we really should get the word out and write our Congressmen. Make them actually do some real work. __________________ "I'm not altogether on anybody's side because no one is altogether on my side." Treebeard, The Two Towers "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." Bilbo Baggins, J. R. R. Tolkien, The Fellowship of The Ring EssentialOilsTM Essentially, Essential.

03-08-2010, 05:18 PM	#11
egg Free Range Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 5,695	Re: Your American Citizenship Takes Another Hit Do you guys actually want to get a petition together? __________________ "I'm not altogether on anybody's side because no one is altogether on my side." Treebeard, The Two Towers "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." Bilbo Baggins, J. R. R. Tolkien, The Fellowship of The Ring EssentialOilsTM Essentially, Essential.

03-08-2010, 05:21 PM	#12
skunk Custom User Title Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 16,547	Re: Your American Citizenship Takes Another Hit That's a heck of a lot better than armchair activism the likes of SHTF and ATS. I went to a town hall meeting on medical cannabis the other night, and I plan on canvassing and spreading the word when I get my lazy ass off this couch.

03-08-2010, 05:26 PM	#13
Ra187 hashstronomer Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Helion prime Posts: 477	Re: Your American Citizenship Takes Another Hit i say we get a petition goin.....try to get some facebook and twitter shit goin on too...thats how to reach the masses these days __________________ life is harmless but love will kill "I'm not gonna learn how to play the guitar very well, im just gonna learn how to play it very cool." Eye "In questions of science the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use." --- Galileo Galilei

03-08-2010, 05:27 PM	#15
skunk Custom User Title Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 16,547	Re: Your American Citizenship Takes Another Hit Each person gets a handful of signatures in their area and submits it to their local representative.

03-08-2010, 05:29 PM	#17
skunk Custom User Title Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 16,547	Re: Your American Citizenship Takes Another Hit That's like saying cops always respect citizens' miranda rights (which is quickly being eroded), and don't abuse people they are interrogating. Shit happens.

03-08-2010, 05:42 PM	#23
boycotteverything Amkon Rex Abjectus Known Sock or Troll Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 12,835	Re: Your American Citizenship Takes Another Hit Oh joy! __________________ AmKon T&C Version 3.0 reeducate the seal©fixt™

03-08-2010, 05:43 PM	#25
skunk Custom User Title Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 16,547	Re: Your American Citizenship Takes Another Hit Well considering waterboarding violates the Geneva convention (and is also illegal under US law), I wouldn't hold my breathe with this one. Criminals have become commonplace among our po-lie-ticians.

03-08-2010, 05:48 PM	#27
boycotteverything Amkon Rex Abjectus Known Sock or Troll Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 12,835	Re: Your American Citizenship Takes Another Hit it may be illegal but it's done all the time by our enlightened troops and intelligence agencies. ...and with the support of a certain segment of the American population. __________________ AmKon T&C Version 3.0 reeducate the seal©fixt™

03-08-2010, 05:54 PM	#31
skunk Custom User Title Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 16,547	Re: Your American Citizenship Takes Another Hit Terrorists aren't enemy combatants though. They're subhuman devils, itching to destroy our freedoms here in the US. They hate you, what are you gonna do about it?

03-08-2010, 06:27 PM	#37
Hazelnut Pussycat Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: iWander Posts: 6,917	Re: Your American Citizenship Takes Another Hit giggling. Sorry egg. I hate to think you think I think I can manipulate you. __________________ WandererInTheWild

03-08-2010, 06:33 PM	#39
Hazelnut Pussycat Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: iWander Posts: 6,917	Re: Your American Citizenship Takes Another Hit uhm. Taken off guard. Unexpected input. Computing.... __________________ WandererInTheWild

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