Former FBI agent slams defence tactics in McKinnon case

[mur]

Original URL: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/10/21/mckinnon_gibson_reaction/

Former FBI agent slams defence tactics in McKinnon case
Suggests hacker should have taken his medicine

By John Leyden

Posted in Security, 21st October 2009 15:09 GMT



Updated A former FBI legal officer who handled controversial plea bargaining negotiations with Gary McKinnon has attacked the tactics adopted by the hacker’s defence team.

Ed Gibson, who moved from his role as the FBI’s assistant legal to work as Microsoft’s chief security advisor in the UK back in 2005, said that if the self-confessed hacker had accepted voluntary extradition when he offered it back in 2003 then he would have “been out of jail four years ago” instead of facing extradition now.

Gibson described frequently-quoted defence fears that McKinnon might face up to 60 years in jail if extradited to the US for breaking into military systems as “nonsense”. In off-the-cuff remarks to an audience during a conference session at RSA Europe in London on Tuesday, Gibson half-jokingly suggested that might sue McKinnon’s lawyer Karen Todner for human rights breaches, presumably because he feels that her defence tactics had unnecessarily prolonged McKinnon’s suffering.
Around 30 people were in the audience for a presentation on The Balance of Browser Security and Settings during which Gibson made his remarks, which came as a surprise from a normally scrupulously diplomatic senior executive who has declined to speak about his role in the case in the past.

Gibson asked for a show of hands on those who thought McKinnon ought to be spared extradition. An audience member who raised his hand responded to Gibson’s invitation to explain himself by saying that McKinnon ought to be tried in the UK because he suffers from Asperger’s Syndrome.

Gibson engaged the fellow in debate, pointing out that UK authorities had declined to try McKinnon in the UK. He controversially reckons that long-running defence team efforts to avoid a US extradition are little better than an attempt to “escape justice”.

Janis Sharp, McKinnon's mum, gave us a robust reaction to Gibson's comments. "Ed Gibson is the same man that said to Gary's legal team that they'd prosecute Gary to max and state wanted to see him fry."

She explained the possible 60 years sentence claim. "Plea bargain could not be guaranteed. Max sentence is 10 yrs per count times seven, but 60 years is max. Can Ed Gibson instruct Judges in sentencing? No!"

"Gary was vulnerable & admitted computer misuse without having a lawyer, big mistake," she added.

The Home Office last week agreed to place a hold on extradition proceedings against McKinnon in order to review new medical data. Having exhausted legal appeals that went all the way up to the House of Lords last year and featured judicial reviews of the handling of the case by the Home Office and UK prosecutors this year, McKinnon's best hope of avoiding extradition currently rests on this review.

[Cogburn]

"Plea bargain could not be guaranteed. Max sentence is 10 yrs per count times seven, but 60 years is max. Can Ed Gibson instruct Judges in sentencing? No!"

No plea bargain is guaranteed.

Gary McKinnon is a big, fat baby.

[boycotteverything]

Go Gary. Fight Leviathan to the bitter end.

[pack3tg0st]

For those who care...

The FOIA response on our hacker.

http://www.theblackvault.com/documents/ufos/nasa/garydocsnasa.pdf

[Cogburn]

The FOIA returned a printout of a discussion in the comments on Slashdot?

lol?

[pack3tg0st]

Still can't believe how this case is panning out...

He broke an American Law on British Soil...

now the U.S. reserves the right to extradite, charge and incarcerate him on their own terms...

I can't believe the UK is playing along with this...

[pack3tg0st]

The FOIA returned a printout of a discussion in the comments on Slashdot?

lol?

Yah... pretty gay...

Its the browsing history of NASA employees LOL

Nothing really in there at all... but that's the FOIA request theblackvault got...

[boycotteverything]

well- there's a pile of bullshit. hahahaha

[Cogburn]

You mean McKinnon's story? Totally.

From that printout the slashdot'ers saw the same technical flaws in his story that I did.

He's full of shit.

[pack3tg0st]

yah... full of shit...

but he still hacked the fuck outta gov't computers lol

but the brits have a point on this one...

he shoudl stand trial in britain, and if he is found guilty, serve his time in a british prison...

I can't believe we can even begin to claim jurisdiction over this guy

[Cogburn]

It's only a matter of who gets him first.

He broke laws in both countries. If he relayed through a host in Canada or Mexico he'd probably be facing charges there, too.

[boycotteverything]

It's only a matter of who gets him first.seems to me the brits already have him. you must have meant,"It's only a matter of who gets him second," eh?

[Lexion]

He's a great paid shill.

[pack3tg0st]

lol yah, he's kind of a lamer in teh grand scheme of things...

here's a real hacker for ya...

Kevin Poulsen

[spoiler:219nzl4k]When Kevin Poulsen was 17, he used his primitive TRS-80 "color computer" to hack into the US Department of Defense's Arpanet, the predecessor of the Internet. He wasn't prosecuted. He was later a computer programmer at SRI and Sun Microsystems, and worked as a consultant testing Pentagon computer security.

In 1988, when authorities suspected Poulsen had cracked a database on the federal investigation of Ferdinand Marcos, they came after him, and he disappeared. As a fugitive, Poulsen needled the FBI by hacking federal computers and revealing details of wiretaps on foreign consulates, suspected mobsters, and the American Civil Liberties Union. He also hacked into the details on FBI front companies. At the highest levels of U.S. law enforcement, they started calling him "The Hannibal Lecter of computer crime".

During his 17 months on the run, Poulsen and two friends, Ronald Austin and Justin Peterson, hacked phone lines to radio station KIIS-FM 102, ensuring that they'd be the "lucky" 102nd caller. Between them, they won two new Porsches, $20,000, and two Hawaiian vacations. When Poulsen was featured on Unsolved Mysteries, a reality crime-solving show, the program's 800 number went dead as Poulsen's picture came on the screen.[/spoiler:219nzl4k]

[Lexion]

The true "Zero-Cool" ?

[boycotteverything]

lol yah, he's kind of a lamer in teh grand scheme of things...

here's a real hacker for ya...

Kevin Poulsen

[spoiler:31f0p7i2]When Kevin Poulsen was 17, he used his primitive TRS-80 "color computer" to hack into the US Department of Defense's Arpanet, the predecessor of the Internet. He wasn't prosecuted. He was later a computer programmer at SRI and Sun Microsystems, and worked as a consultant testing Pentagon computer security.

In 1988, when authorities suspected Poulsen had cracked a database on the federal investigation of Ferdinand Marcos, they came after him, and he disappeared. As a fugitive, Poulsen needled the FBI by hacking federal computers and revealing details of wiretaps on foreign consulates, suspected mobsters, and the American Civil Liberties Union. He also hacked into the details on FBI front companies. At the highest levels of U.S. law enforcement, they started calling him "The Hannibal Lecter of computer crime".

During his 17 months on the run, Poulsen and two friends, Ronald Austin and Justin Peterson, hacked phone lines to radio station KIIS-FM 102, ensuring that they'd be the "lucky" 102nd caller. Between them, they won two new Porsches, $20,000, and two Hawaiian vacations. When Poulsen was featured on Unsolved Mysteries, a reality crime-solving show, the program's 800 number went dead as Poulsen's picture came on the screen.[/spoiler:31f0p7i2]so what happened to the guy?

[hp]

If bank execs and illegals can get a pass, he should also. The whole system is wacked out big time.

[pack3tg0st]

he eluded capture for almost two years... finally someone recognized his picture from Unsolved Mysteries... called him in and they arrested him in a supermarket...

plead guilty, 5 years in jail...

Is now one of the Sr. Editors of WIRED magazine lol

[boycotteverything]

a true intertube narodnik. i love it.

[pack3tg0st]

He actually didn't get SENT to jail for 5 years either BE>..

he turned himself into the man who nkew too much... he had all sorts of dirt on the FBI/CIA.. (he knew who they were wiretapping... including embassies).

He sat in Solitary confinement for almost 5 years... then cut him a plea bargain...

Plead guilty, and be sentenced to "time served"

He's the Binary Robin Hood lol

[Cogburn]

Kevin Poulson's handle was "DarkDante".

I met one of his co-horts, Agent Steal, at SummerCon in 1992.

[offsite=http://www.phrack.com/issues.html?issue=40&id=11:3ilcbudn]Agent Steal himself had spent a short time in prison on some bogus charges that
were brought against him to elicit his help in prosecuting Poulsen. He refused
to assist, but he eventually was released anyway. He said that he was looking
forward to something different now, but he may have been referring to the Ozzy
Osbourne concert later that night in St. Louis. Agent Steal is working on a
book about his adventures with Poulsen called "Data Thief" and he expects it to
be published in the near future.[/offsite:3ilcbudn]

I'm in the guest list as "Darkangel". Ahhh.. my misspent youth.

[boycotteverything]

jesus! when did you find time to get your degrees in rocket science and brain surgery? busy kid.

[pack3tg0st]

:-)) Look at that list of handles lol

Wow... :-))

any of those would get laughed out of blackhatforums these days LOL

All of this before Hackers came out huh? :-))

sorry man... I forgot what hacking was like back then LOL

fuckin' FUNNY though... kinda like looking at pictures of people from the 70's and how they were dressed lol

why no 133t5p34k?

[Cogburn]

I went to HoHoCon in '93 and roomed with Dark Tangent, the guy that founded DEFCON.

There would be no blackhatforums without us.

Man... I haven't thought about this shit in years...

[mur]

I have no problem with if the Brits charge him...but they have not.

My problem is with those that hold up Gary as some kind of ufo hero.

He's not.

He brought this on himself, and he has made his situation worse

[Lexion]

Gary is a paid shill.

Proven.

Give it up.

[boycotteverything]

well- we've heard you say that about ten times now and have yet to see any justification.

[pack3tg0st]

you don't need to see our justification...

http://maaadddog.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/jedi-entrepreneur-mind-trick2.jpg

[boycotteverything]

that's what i figured. magical words. repeat em enough and they become true. hahahahah

[Cogburn]

well- we've heard you say that about ten times now and have yet to see any justification.
This is a conspiracy forum... no proof is required. Duh.

[boycotteverything]

sorry. lost my head for a moment.

[Yex]

Times online interview with Gary

2]B4PkNPCEnJM2]

[Chorlton]

Im no fan of McKinnon but we have several problems here.
Firstly, we have nostupid 'Plea Bargaining' in the UK If someone is guilty they get their punishment and no amount of negotiation could or should change that. For the US to offer Plea Bargaining to him smells of their lack of actuall evidence or doubt of full prosection of him.

Secondly. His crime was committed from the UK and he should be tried here under our law. He will probably get 6 months Community service (thats planting trees and cleaning graffitti to you colonials).
I suspect the whole thing is Hard Cheese on the part of the US as they got laughed at around the world for the stupid security of their systems.
The extradition treaty between the US is totally one sided and should be dropped immediately.
If McKinnon isnt extradited (and I doubt he will be) he will be charged and tried here, probably in a lower magistrates court. His 'crime' was inconsequential and if he didnt do it, someone else, probably Al Qaeda, would have, and probably already have done.

I stick two fingers up to the US legal system, it is flawed beyond repair.
The death penalty in itself shows the savagery of such a country and its people.

[Yex]

I suspect the whole thing is Hard Cheese on the part of the US as they got laughed at around the world for the stupid security of their systems.
The extradition treaty between the US is totally one sided and should be dropped immediately.
If McKinnon isnt extradited (and I doubt he will be) he will be charged and tried here, probably in a lower magistrates court. His 'crime' was inconsequential and if he didnt do it, someone else, probably Al Qaeda, would have.

I stick two fingers up to the US legal system, it is flawed beyond repair.
The death penalty in itself shows the savagery of such a country and its people.

Smite for truth

Yex

[boycotteverything]

Great interview. How can anyone, after seeing that, still favor extradition? Personally I support Gary's efforts to expose USG UFO secrets. Isn't that the central mantra for Ufologists the world over? He was serving our cause. That cause is disclosure. Period.

I have no problem with if the Brits charge him...but they have not.

My problem is with those that hold up Gary as some kind of ufo hero.

He's not.

He brought this on himself, and he has made his situation worse

Gary is precisely 'some kind of UFO hero.' If you don't understand that then I have to question your own commitment to disclosure- and your own agenda. Ufology is not simply the playground of dilettantes. It is a serious and profoundly important pursuit.

[Chorlton]

If he had eaten Turnips, NONE of this would have happened.

There, but for the taste of Turnips....go I

[mur]

Im no fan of McKinnon but we have several problems here.
Firstly, we have nostupid 'Plea Bargaining' in the UK If someone is guilty they get their punishment and no amount of negotiation could or should change that. For the US to offer Plea Bargaining to him smells of their lack of actuall evidence or doubt of full prosection of him.

Secondly. His crime was committed from the UK and he should be tried here under our law. He will probably get 6 months Community service (thats planting trees and cleaning graffitti to you colonials).
I suspect the whole thing is Hard Cheese on the part of the US as they got laughed at around the world for the stupid security of their systems.
The extradition treaty between the US is totally one sided and should be dropped immediately.
If McKinnon isnt extradited (and I doubt he will be) he will be charged and tried here, probably in a lower magistrates court. His 'crime' was inconsequential and if he didnt do it, someone else, probably Al Qaeda, would have, and probably already have done.

I stick two fingers up to the US legal system, it is flawed beyond repair.
The death penalty in itself shows the savagery of such a country and its people.


There is no UK vicitm, and therefore, no UK crime.

Gary is a proven liar. He continues to lie to this day.

The extradition treaty does appear one sided though.

I don't really care if he goes to trial or not.

But ufology can't claim it wants the truth, when it uses lies to obtain that truth.

Ufology is basically supporting Gary's lies.

[mur]

Great interview. How can anyone, after seeing that, still favor extradition? Personally I support Gary's efforts to expose USG UFO secrets. Isn't that the central mantra for Ufologists the world over? He was serving our cause. That cause is disclosure. Period.

I have no problem with if the Brits charge him...but they have not.

My problem is with those that hold up Gary as some kind of ufo hero.

He's not.

He brought this on himself, and he has made his situation worse

Gary is precisely 'some kind of UFO hero.' If you don't understand that then I have to question your own commitment to disclosure- and your own agenda. Ufology is not simply the playground of dilettantes. It is a serious and profoundly important pursuit.


Lies aren't truth.

Liars aren't heroes

Based on your logic, lies are acceptable, disclosure will be a lie and that would be okay with you?

Clearly ufology is a bunch of hypocrites.

The truth does not apply to them

Edit....I thought this thread was lost in the edit?

[boycotteverything]

lies? because you say they're lies?

[pack3tg0st]

Is it okay to break the law in the name of "truth?"

Hacking shouldn't be a crime period... truth or no.

[Chorlton]

I also note Lears idea of a 'Space Corps' is based around McKinnons findings or did he have that crackpot idea before Mckinnon?
I cant find any trave of it from him pre-McKinnon.

[boycotteverything]

Is it okay to break the law in the name of "truth?"

Hacking shouldn't be a crime period... truth or no.In the interests of a higher truth- of course. This country wouldn't exist if a few brave lawbreakers hadn't tossed the King's property into Boston Harbor. Of course 'lawbreaking in the interests of higher truth' is a principle that has to stand the test of history. Not all 'truths' are equal. In fact many truths are actually lies. I think that's Mur's point. I disagree with him only to the extent of his premise that Gary has been proven to be serving lies rather than a higher truth. I've yet to see any convincing evidence of that. Nor do I, as Mur does, denigrate Gary's motives. I take Gary at his word that his computer hacking was motivated by the 'higher truth' of Ufological disclosure- a cause the he and I share.

[pack3tg0st]

Sounds like we agree... just for different reasons.

[boycotteverything]

How are the reasons different?

[boycotteverything]

I also note Lears idea of a 'Space Corps' is based around McKinnons findings or did he have that crackpot idea before Mckinnon?
I cant find any trave of it from him pre-McKinnon.I think he picked that up from Gary and Gridkeeper. John was never one to waste a good conspiracy.

[hp]

a good conspiracy

conspiracy or fairy tale?

[boycotteverything]

a good conspiracy

conspiracy or fairy tale?The two are more often than not the same thing.

[pack3tg0st]

How are the reasons different?

You're saying that a little flexability with the law is positive when seeking a greater truth...

In this instance, I say that Hacking shouldn't be illegal period... Mostly because Hacking always starts out as means to achieving a greater understanding for how things work. Once you have an understanding, it becomes a challenge... inspiring creativity, and usually significant lessons learned along the way...

Hacking is the pursuit of knowledge and understanding... Sometimes, it becomes malicious... but I'd wager a true black-hatter is rarer than the general public thinks...

How obscene is it to put someone in jail over some zeros and ones?

Over some fuckin' electrons?

LIke Is said... we agree on this one instance... but for completely different reasons... You say he was going for the greater truth... I say Hacking shouldn't be illegal to begin with in any circumstance.

[boycotteverything]

Two different issues and I only answered one. Hre's the response to the second-
How obscene is it to put someone in jail over some zeros and ones?

Over some fuckin' electrons?...or for ingesting an herb? There's your answer. We agree on all three issues.

[Cogburn]

How are the reasons different?

You're saying that a little flexability with the law is positive when seeking a greater truth...

In this instance, I say that Hacking shouldn't be illegal period... Mostly because Hacking always starts out as means to achieving a greater understanding for how things work. Once you have an understanding, it becomes a challenge... inspiring creativity, and usually significant lessons learned along the way...

Hacking is the pursuit of knowledge and understanding... Sometimes, it becomes malicious... but I'd wager a true black-hatter is rarer than the general public thinks...

How obscene is it to put someone in jail over some zeros and ones?

Over some fuckin' electrons?

LIke Is said... we agree on this one instance... but for completely different reasons... You say he was going for the greater truth... I say Hacking shouldn't be illegal to begin with in any circumstance.
I'll be waiting for that PM w/ your personal identifiers and your bank account PIN.

It is, after all, only electrons.

[pack3tg0st]

I'll be waiting for that PM w/ your personal identifiers and your bank account PIN.

It is, after all, only electrons.

I don't "do" online banking :)

and I don't have any PINs...

The best way to protect info you want protected, is to not ever put it out there to begin with :)

[mur]

Is it okay to break the law in the name of "truth?"

Hacking shouldn't be a crime period... truth or no.In the interests of a higher truth- of course. This country wouldn't exist if a few brave lawbreakers hadn't tossed the King's property into Boston Harbor. Of course 'lawbreaking in the interests of higher truth' is a principle that has to stand the test of history. Not all 'truths' are equal. In fact many truths are actually lies. I think that's Mur's point. I disagree with him only to the extent of his premise that Gary has been proven to be serving lies rather than a higher truth. I've yet to see any convincing evidence of that. Nor do I, as Mur does, denigrate Gary's motives. I take Gary at his word that his computer hacking was motivated by the 'higher truth' of Ufological disclosure- a cause the he and I share.

I don't have problem with Gary breaking the law. I have a problem with him using a defense of lies.

If he wanted to claim the moral high ground, he would not distort the truth as a defense.

He would be proud of what he did and wear it like a badge of honor.

But there is no honor in lies.

I could care less if he does any time at all.

My concern is the black mark this has on legitimate ufology.

Gary's lies are easy to spot. Lies from one of ufology affect the whole of ufology.

Ufology's credibility has taken another hit, self inflicted as usual.

Gary did not need to take this road.

All that has been accomplished here is a further development of the mindset that says "We want the truth, as long as it doesn't apply to me"

Comparing Gary to the Boston Tea party is laughable. Those men were willing to die for what they believed.

Gary doesn't even want a trial. What a hero my ass

[Cogburn]

I look forward to the day when BE can't deny McKinnon for the hoaxster that he is.

[boycotteverything]

Gary's lies are easy to spot.It's not enough to just repeat that statement over and over again. Repeating it doesn't make it so. Please tell me what these purported lies are. Briefly and succinctly. I'll settle for just one to five.

Gary's Lies
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.

[Snow Crash]

The best way to protect info you want protected, is to not ever put it out there to begin with :)

Gold bars in the mattress eh? ;)

[pack3tg0st]

ya know... I had a realization the other day...

Gold is the ultimate fiat currency...

that might be another thread someday when i'm motivated...

[Cogburn]

Gary's lies are easy to spot.It's not enough to just repeat that statement over and over again. Repeating it doesn't make it so. Please tell me what these purported lies are. Briefly and succinctly. I'll settle for just one to five.

There's only one lie that's absolutely verifiable.

What he has described in interviews as the actual events are technically impossible. It cannot be done with the software in question and the manner in which it was employed.

It's screamingly obvious if you've ever used the software, much less used the software over a dial-up connection overseas.

It's also the reason he's still in legal jeopardy, regardless of his public protestations.

[pack3tg0st]

Wait?

He supposedly hacked with a dialup connection?

:lol:

noob

[Lexion]

Yeah, the dial-up thing is
hilarious.

Plus, 2 fucking years he was
supposedly doing this, and
not a single screen-cap ?

Right-o.

[pack3tg0st]

Could you imagine the time it would take to brute-force somethign over dialup?

I imagine that's what he did...

He doesn't sound all that great at the hacking thing...

[pack3tg0st]

I should probably read up on what he did specifically... All i've read so far is "hacked"...

no technical stats or anything...

[hp]

from what I have seen, his supposed interviews, he found boxes with none or default passwords. Wasn't mush tech to it. Made the sites look pretty bad, security wise.

[pack3tg0st]

:lol:

sounds so.... challenging doesn't it? /

:lol:

[Cogburn]

I know that there was one interview in Wired just a couple of months ago, although I tossed it already so I don't know which issue.

Slashdot also has an article where the comments section is... vicious.

[Lexion]

Enjoy (http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/05/06/1247236)

[Cogburn]

[offsite:39qo75bv]This guy's full of shit. His answers don't make sense.

...and bearing in mind this is a 56k dial-up, so a very slow internet connection, in dial-up days..."

"...No, the graphical remote viewer works frame by frame. It's a Java application..."

"SK: You were actually cut off the time you were downloading the picture?
GM: Yes, I saw the guy's hand move across."


Can someone show me a a Java VM that existed and would have been the programming language of choice in the "dial-up days"? At least to me the heyday of dialup was the late 80s to mid 90s, then cable and DSL started taking over. The first version of Java wasn't released until about '96 and wasn't widely deployed/accepted until 2000 or so.

HOW did he see a "guy's hand move" over a dial-up connection that was sending about 1 frame every 2 minutes at best?

Idiot. I'm guessing the interview was so short because the BBC interviewer smelled the BS.[/offsite:39qo75bv]
[offsite:39qo75bv]>> Bonus points if you can explain why 100 years advanced military technology isn't being used in Iraq right now.
It is. They're using 300 years advanced Romulan technology to hide it. You can trust me on this because I got it straight from Elvis. He's in a great position to investigate these things because no one suspects him since they all think he's dead.[/offsite:39qo75bv]

[GeneralStriker]

i see nothing here but the same old bullshit. the guy wasn't a hacker he was a ufer with a little knowledge. the systems he accessed were unprotected. it's obvious that he gained access or he'd never have been charged.

[Cogburn]

His recount of the tale is technically impossible, unfeasible in the most liberal of interpretations.

... because it's a lie and it has nothing to do with UFOs at all.

[Lexion]

Again.....in 2 fucking years, absolutely
nothing to back his story; other than
he hacked them.

That part, I don't give a flying fuck about.

His Lear-esque claims are the issue with me.

Zero fucking proof.

Hell, if was was too stupid to do a screen-cap,
take a fucking picture of the screen.

All old school and shit.

But, no.

All we have is his word.

How's that Soul Catcher coming along ?

[GeneralStriker]

... because it's a lie and it has nothing to do with UFOs at all.Five points waiting to be made. Please enlighten me.

[Lexion]

Source (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/click_online/4977134.stm)

[offsite:22r9kmuz]so you could scan 65,000 machines in just over eight minutes.[/offsite:22r9kmuz]

On dial-up ? Not likely.

[offsite:22r9kmuz]But there was one occasion when a network engineer saw me and actually questioned me and we actually talked to each other via WordPad, which was very, very strange.[/offsite:22r9kmuz]

[offsite:22r9kmuz]He said "What are you doing?" which was a bit shocking. I told him I was from Military Computer Security, which he fully believed.[/offsite:22r9kmuz]

Absolute bullshit to anyone that
ever dealt with security.

[offsite:22r9kmuz]There was a group called the Disclosure Project. They published a book[/offsite:22r9kmuz]

Sell those books, Gary. (paid shill)

[offsite:22r9kmuz]But what came on to the screen was amazing. It was a culmination of all my efforts. It was a picture of something that definitely wasn't man-made.

It was above the Earth's hemisphere. It kind of looked like a satellite. It was cigar-shaped and had geodesic domes above, below, to the left, the right and both ends of it, and although it was a low-resolution picture it was very close up.

This thing was hanging in space, the earth's hemisphere visible below it, and no rivets, no seams, none of the stuff associated with normal man-made manufacturing.[/offsite:22r9kmuz]

Anyone remember Gridkeeper ?

Utter bullshit.

[offsite:22r9kmuz]No, the graphical remote viewer works frame by frame. It's a Java application, so there's nothing to save on your hard drive, or at least if it is, only one frame at a time.[/offsite:22r9kmuz]

I'll let the tech savvy shoot holes in that.

[offsite:22r9kmuz]Yes, I saw the guy's hand move across.[/offsite:22r9kmuz]

Utter bullshit.

[GeneralStriker]

Gary's lies are easy to spot.

It's not enough to just repeat that statement over and over again. Repeating it doesn't make it so. Please tell me what these purported lies are. Briefly and succinctly. I'll settle for just one to five.

Feel free to fill in the blanks. Evidence would be appreciated.

Gary's Lies

1.___________________________________________

2.___________________________________________

3.___________________________________________

4.___________________________________________

5.___________________________________________

[GeneralStriker]

still waiting...

[Lexion]

Source (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/click_online/4977134.stm)

[offsite:1o238xk4]so you could scan 65,000 machines in just over eight minutes.[/offsite:1o238xk4]

On dial-up ? Not likely.

[offsite:1o238xk4]But there was one occasion when a network engineer saw me and actually questioned me and we actually talked to each other via WordPad, which was very, very strange.[/offsite:1o238xk4]

[offsite:1o238xk4]He said "What are you doing?" which was a bit shocking. I told him I was from Military Computer Security, which he fully believed.[/offsite:1o238xk4]

Absolute bullshit to anyone that
ever dealt with security.

[offsite:1o238xk4]There was a group called the Disclosure Project. They published a book[/offsite:1o238xk4]

Sell those books, Gary. (paid shill)

[offsite:1o238xk4]But what came on to the screen was amazing. It was a culmination of all my efforts. It was a picture of something that definitely wasn't man-made.

It was above the Earth's hemisphere. It kind of looked like a satellite. It was cigar-shaped and had geodesic domes above, below, to the left, the right and both ends of it, and although it was a low-resolution picture it was very close up.

This thing was hanging in space, the earth's hemisphere visible below it, and no rivets, no seams, none of the stuff associated with normal man-made manufacturing.[/offsite:1o238xk4]

Anyone remember Gridkeeper ?

Utter bullshit.

[offsite:1o238xk4]No, the graphical remote viewer works frame by frame. It's a Java application, so there's nothing to save on your hard drive, or at least if it is, only one frame at a time.[/offsite:1o238xk4]

I'll let the tech savvy shoot holes in that.

[offsite:1o238xk4]Yes, I saw the guy's hand move across.[/offsite:1o238xk4]

Utter bullshit.

[GeneralStriker]

The words "utter bullshit" do not constitute rational argument where I come from. If it's good enough for you- then so be it. Discussion over.

[Lexion]

At least I gave it a shot.

Convincing you, is impossible.

I layed out my thoughts.

We both have our views, and
I respect yours.

I just disagree with it.

[mur]

Gary's lies are easy to spot.It's not enough to just repeat that statement over and over again. Repeating it doesn't make it so. Please tell me what these purported lies are. Briefly and succinctly. I'll settle for just one to five.

Gary's Lies
1.From the ruling: “On this basis it was likely that a sentence of 3-4 years (more precisely 37-46 months), probably at the shorter end of that bracket, would be passed and that after serving 6-12 months in the US, the appellant would be repatriated to complete his sentence in the UK.” The ruling goes on to note:

19. The predicted sentence of 3-4 years was based upon sentencing guidelines themselves based upon a points system. The prosecution would recommend to the court a particular points level which the court would be likely to accept.

If he refused the plea, Lord Brown wrote McKinnon “might expect to receive a sentence of 8-10 years, possibly longer, and would not be repatriated to the UK for any part of it.”
Gary maintains he faces 60 years. He is lying
2. McKinnon has contended that if extradited to the U.S., he could be treated as a terrorist, tried in a military tribunal and ultimately imprisoned at Guantanamo Bay.
“Mr. McKinnon has never been classified in that manner or treated in that manner, as far as I’m aware,” said Christie, who now leads the information technology group at law firm McCarter & English LLP. “He will be treated as a normal criminal defendant in the civil court system of this country. He’s a run-of-the-mill criminal with a run-of-the-mill crime.”

Gary is lying, he is not charged as a terrorist


3.But I thought the most heartbreaking thing happened when he started giving interviews to journalists from UFO magazines and podcasts. He said that the photograph of the spherical, smooth object he saw buried away at the Johnson Space Centre – the one he told me had looked like a UFO but was probably a satellite – was definitely a UFO.

Gary is lying, he saw no ufo and has previously admitted it




4.He left a digital visiting card that taunted the Americans: "US foreign policy is akin to government-sponsored terrorism these days... I am SOLO. I will continue to disrupt at the highest levels".

Gary claims he was just looking for ufo info. But he is lying because he threatened disruption


5.McKinnon:I also got access to Excel spreadsheets. One was titled "Non-Terrestrial Officers." It contained names and ranks of U.S. Air Force personnel who are not registered anywhere else. It also contained information about ship-to-ship transfers, but I've never seen the names of these ships noted anywhere else.

WN: Could this have been some sort of military strategy game or outline of hypothetical situations?

McKinnon: The military want to have military dominance of space. What I found could be a game -- it's hard to know for certain.

Gary claims he saw what he saw, but clearly he is lying because he has no idea what he looked at.

Gary is lying to avoid prosecution. Good for him, Bad for ufology.


http://strange.corante.com/2009/08/06/gary-mckinnon-the-truth-is-out-there-just-not-in-the-british-press
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/aug/01/gary-mckinnon-extradition-nightmare
http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1025032/pentagon-hacker-hands-lord
http://www.wired.com/techbiz/it/news/2006/06/71182

[Lexion]

Thanks, Mur.

Smite.

[hp]

In his world, hacker = unauthorized user

[GeneralStriker]

[quote]Gary's lies are easy to spot.It's not enough to just repeat that statement over and over again. Repeating it doesn't make it so. Please tell me what these purported lies are. Briefly and succinctly. I'll settle for just one to five.

Gary's Lies
1.From the ruling: “On this basis it was likely that a sentence of 3-4 years (more precisely 37-46 months), probably at the shorter end of that bracket, would be passed and that after serving 6-12 months in the US, the appellant would be repatriated to complete his sentence in the UK.” The ruling goes on to note:

19. The predicted sentence of 3-4 years was based upon sentencing guidelines themselves based upon a points system. The prosecution would recommend to the court a particular points level which the court would be likely to accept.

If he refused the plea, Lord Brown wrote McKinnon “might expect to receive a sentence of 8-10 years, possibly longer, and would not be repatriated to the UK for any part of it.”
Gary maintains he faces 60 years. He is lying

The penalty is 70 years. No guarantees of the plea deal.

2. McKinnon has contended that if extradited to the U.S., he could be treated as a terrorist, tried in a military tribunal and ultimately imprisoned at Guantanamo Bay.
“Mr. McKinnon has never been classified in that manner or treated in that manner, as far as I’m aware,” said Christie, who now leads the information technology group at law firm McCarter & English LLP. “He will be treated as a normal criminal defendant in the civil court system of this country. He’s a run-of-the-mill criminal with a run-of-the-mill crime.”

Gary is lying, he is not charged as a terrorist

Small matter. Hardly a lie. The US wants to make an example of him.


3.But I thought the most heartbreaking thing happened when he started giving interviews to journalists from UFO magazines and podcasts. He said that the photograph of the spherical, smooth object he saw buried away at the Johnson Space Centre – the one he told me had looked like a UFO but was probably a satellite – was definitely a UFO.

Gary is lying, he saw no ufo and has previously admitted it

Source?




4.He left a digital visiting card that taunted the Americans: "US foreign policy is akin to government-sponsored terrorism these days... I am SOLO. I will continue to disrupt at the highest levels".

Gary claims he was just looking for ufo info. But he is lying because he threatened disruption

Threatened but did not follow through. So?


5.McKinnon:I also got access to Excel spreadsheets. One was titled "Non-Terrestrial Officers." It contained names and ranks of U.S. Air Force personnel who are not registered anywhere else. It also contained information about ship-to-ship transfers, but I've never seen the names of these ships noted anywhere else.

WN: Could this have been some sort of military strategy game or outline of hypothetical situations?

McKinnon: The military want to have military dominance of space. What I found could be a game -- it's hard to know for certain.

Gary claims he saw what he saw, but clearly he is lying because he has no idea what he looked at.

He readily admits it may have been a game. So?

Gary is lying to avoid prosecution. Good for him, Bad for ufology.

The bullshit is not coming from Gary- it's coming from you and your ilk.


http://strange.corante.com/2009/08/06/gary-mckinnon-the-truth-is-out-there-just-not-in-the-british-press
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/aug/01/gary-mckinnon-extradition-nightmare
http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1025032/pentagon-hacker-hands-lord
http://www.wired.com/techbiz/it/news/2006/06/71182[/quote:344n22zb]

[Lexion]

[offsite:1liayy5i]What were you doing prior to the most recent arrest?
McKinnon: I wanted to get the trailing documentation to screw the Americans. I looked at things and I didn't like what I was seeing. They talk about the war on terror, and meanwhile they are training people in[/offsite:1liayy5i]

Source (http://news.cnet.com/Gary-McKinnon-Scapegoat-or-public-enemy/2008-7350_3-5786782.html)

Poor guy is being spoon
fed lines from his backers.

[Lexion]

Just for the Hell of it, his Grand Jury
Indictment.

news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/cyberlaw/usmck1102vaind.pdf

[GeneralStriker]

"What were you doing prior to the most recent arrest?
McKinnon: I wanted to get the trailing documentation to screw the Americans. I looked at things and I didn't like what I was seeing. They talk about the war on terror, and meanwhile they are training people in..." let's complete that sentence- "...torture techniques, breaking and entering, and close-quarter fighting, and these are all little South American dictatorships. And then there is the humanist angle of antigravity technology and the 9/11 thing, but that didn't get very far." Gary is hero.

[mur]

The penalty is 70 years. No guarantees of the plea deal.

Federal Sentencing guidelines say differently

Small matter. Hardly a lie. The US wants to make an example of him.


If it's not the truth, it's a lie.

Source?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/aug/01/gary-mckinnon-extradition-nightmare

Threatened but did not follow through. So?

He disrupted supplies to Navy ships after 9-11. Sounds like a follow through to me.
Let's have a trial and see the evidence. Oh that's right, you don't want there to be a trial.

He readily admits it may have been a game. So?

So he has been lying.

The bullshit is not coming from Gary- it's coming from you and your ilk.

Facts are bullshit and liars are heroes?

[mur]

"What were you doing prior to the most recent arrest?
McKinnon: I wanted to get the trailing documentation to screw the Americans. I looked at things and I didn't like what I was seeing. They talk about the war on terror, and meanwhile they are training people in..." let's complete that sentence- "...torture techniques, breaking and entering, and close-quarter fighting, and these are all little South American dictatorships. And then there is the humanist angle of antigravity technology and the 9/11 thing, but that didn't get very far." Gary is hero.


So much for the benevolent ufo hacker defense...another lie

[GeneralStriker]

fuck you. two small words that sum up my attitude towards america-firsters.

[Lexion]

let's complete that sentence- "...torture techniques, breaking and entering, and close-quarter fighting, and these are all little South American dictatorships. And then there is the humanist angle of antigravity technology and the 9/11 thing, but that didn't get very far."

That's fucking rich.

Pure speculation and fantasy
on your part.

Putting words in his mouth, just
like The Disclosure Project.

[Lexion]

fuck you. two small words that sum up my attitude towards america-firsters.

That was out of left field.

"America Firsters" ??

WTF does that have to do with
some idiot that "hacked" computers
and makes claims of aliens ?

[elrayo]

Geez...I thought he said "Fisters"

[mur]

fuck you. two small words that sum up my attitude towards america-firsters.

Hardly, I'm a truth firster. I know the truth hurts, but ufology can't demand the truth when it doesn't hold itself accountable to it.

[Lexion]

Hardly, I'm a truth firster. I know the truth hurts, but ufology can't demand the truth when it doesn't hold itself accountable to it.

Well said.

Honestly, I think there are two
camps.

UFOlogists, and Alien believers.

Before you jump my ass, listen.

I believe in UFO's. No doubt in my mind.

It's the alien aspect that I don't believe.

Some do, and that's fine.

But, I kind of like solid evidence.

For UFO's, it's there. They exist.

For aliens, we have J-Rod and Greer.

[elrayo]

I think there might be a few more than "lurking" about

[Lexion]

I think there might be a few more than "lurking" about

Extrapolate, please ?

[elrayo]

just meaning that the behavior & attitudes of a lot of people make me question their "humanity"

[Lexion]

Doesn't make them aliens
or reptoids.

Just makes them Human.

The brain is a strange thing.

[elrayo]

So how does J-Rod fit in the alien category?

[Lexion]

*facepalm*

Taking it to PM and chat, as not
to completely derail this.

[mur]

Hardly, I'm a truth firster. I know the truth hurts, but ufology can't demand the truth when it doesn't hold itself accountable to it.

Well said.

Honestly, I think there are two
camps.

UFOlogists, and Alien believers.

Before you jump my ass, listen.

I believe in UFO's. No doubt in my mind.

It's the alien aspect that I don't believe.

Some do, and that's fine.

But, I kind of like solid evidence.

For UFO's, it's there. They exist.

For aliens, we have J-Rod and Greer.

I'm not ready to make the "No aliens" leap quite yet.

There is a lot of witness testimony...I don't think they are all lying.

It could be though that the human mind is not capable of processing what is actually occurring with respect to this aspect of the phenomena. Perhaps it is demonic. Perhaps it is something else. I don't know.

Secret releases, such as Source "A" or Serpo are no doubt bogus however

[Lexion]

Can you see the distinction
I'm making, though ?

[Lexion]

9]48jSLNKLf8w9]

[mur]

Can you see the distinction
I'm making, though ?

I see it

[boycotteverything]

let's complete that sentence- "...torture techniques, breaking and entering, and close-quarter fighting, and these are all little South American dictatorships. And then there is the humanist angle of antigravity technology and the 9/11 thing, but that didn't get very far."

That's fucking rich.

Pure speculation and fantasy
on your part.

Putting words in his mouth, just
like The Disclosure Project.Except that it's the continuation of the sentence, on page 2, taken from your own source. did you even read it? those are Gary's words, not mine.

[Lexion]

And some kid that wanted UFO's
all of a sudden spouts that ?

Spoon-fed, indeed.

Wonder if Kerry or Bill is writing
the checks.

[boycotteverything]

And some kid that wanted UFO's
all of a sudden spouts that ?Hardly a kid. He was 39 years old when he gave that CNET interview in 2005. Incidentally that was more than two years before the inception of Project Camelot.

[Lexion]

[offsite:26kwdu0b]Gary McKinnon: I was in search of suppressed technology, laughingly referred to as UFO technology. I think it's the biggest kept secret in the world because of its comic value, but it's a very important thing.[/offsite:26kwdu0b]

Source (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/click_online/4977134.stm)

Oddly, not mentioned here.

Gee.

[mojo]

i think many of us have said at various times in different threads that if he gets locked away for dionkeys years then he'll have his attorney's to thank for it.
they've pretty much mishandled his defence from the get go.

[Lexion]

Mojo,

I don't care about the hacking.

It's the lies he's spouting that
damage the UFOlogy community.

He can stay free for all I care,
he just needs to get off the teats
of The Disclosure Project.

[boycotteverything]

[offsite:37xb4wqq]Gary McKinnon: I was in search of suppressed technology, laughingly referred to as UFO technology. I think it's the biggest kept secret in the world because of its comic value, but it's a very important thing.[/offsite:37xb4wqq]

Source (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/click_online/4977134.stm)

Oddly, not mentioned here.

Gee.
From the BBC interview:Old-age pensioners can't pay their fuel bills, countries are invaded to award oil contracts to the West, and meanwhile secretive parts of the secret government are sitting on suppressed technology for free energy. Gary obviously had more on his mind than UFOs. Do you ever actually read your own sources??

[mojo]

Mojo,

I don't care about the hacking.

It's the lies he's spouting that
damage the UFOlogy community.

He can stay free for all I care,
he just needs to get off the teats
of The Disclosure Project.

agreed lex, and its part of his defence, pushed by his attorney's imo, which is why he continues to sprout it.
and its going to end up with him getting fucked up the ass in the shower block because of it.

[Lexion]

Why yes, yes I do.

He is being told what to say.

Years after the incident, he
tries to justify what he did,
with bleeding heart liberal nonsense.

Is that why you so devoutly defend
him ?

Because he acts the part of a liberal ?

Christ man, you're smarter than that.

If Charlie Manson had said, "We killed
the Tates and Bianca's because they
were evil people with a lot of money
and could pay their bills while we lived
on a farm and dropped acid to survive."

Would you say he was innocent ?

Would he be justified ?

[boycotteverything]

His attorneys have kept him out of an american jail. i'd say they've done a damned good job. they've just about run out the clock. i highly doubt he'll ever be extradited.

Christ man, you're smarter than that.don't patronize me you piece of shit.

[Lexion]

Christ man, you're smarter than that.don't patronize me you piece of shit.

And it comes down to that.

Well done.

[boycotteverything]

you bet it does. your innuendo is that a smart man would never support Gary's cause and that I, and he, must have a hidden agenda. and that's plain bullshit.

[Lexion]

The words "utter bullshit" do not constitute rational argument where I come from. If it's good enough for you- then so be it. Discussion over.

[skunk]

Someone forgot to take their metamucil this morning.

[boycotteverything]

The words "utter bullshit" do not constitute rational argument where I come from. If it's good enough for you- then so be it. Discussion over.plain bullshit is another matter.

[Lexion]

Schemantics.

:D

[pack3tg0st]

Jeez guys... the food fight continues...

Truth or no... he's getting thrown in jail because of a bunch of ones and zeros...

nothing more than electrons...

He didn't really do any hacking... someone left the front door open and he walked in...

He's in trouble because it was an embarrasment to some rich fuckheads...

the rest of the "ZOMFG he's LYING about UFO's" and the likes is just mundane details...

UFOlogy shoots themselves in the foot quite constantly.. as does every other aspect of CT...

We're all fuckin' lunatics... just hang on and enjoy the ride.

But its not that important in the overall case against him.

[hp]

Someone forgot to take their metamucil this morning.
:lol:

I'm sorry but it is funny.

[boycotteverything]

He didn't really do any hacking... someone left the front door open and he walked in...

He's in trouble because it was an embarrasment to some rich fuckheads... can't argue with that.

[boycotteverything]

or maybe i should have said, "oh please, you're smarter than that."

[hp]

nothing more than electrons...

He didn't really do any hacking... someone left the front door open and he walked in...

Very much like what is going on in the financial community while our representatives turn a blind eye.

[pack3tg0st]

LOL than if current trends continue, we should be handing gary billions of dollars....

[boycotteverything]

nothing more than electrons...

He didn't really do any hacking... someone left the front door open and he walked in...

Very much like what is going on in the financial community while our representatives [s:329enmzr]turn a blind eye[/s:329enmzr] are asleep at the switch .fixt

[hp]

Well, we will at least be spending some fairly big money on a trial.

[Lexion]

or maybe i should have said, "oh please, you're smarter than that."

And I might have re-evaluated
my position.

Fuck, who am I trying to fool.

[mojo]

... someone left the front door open and he walked in...


try using that defence if you rob your neighbour....let me know how it goes.

[Lexion]

Ok Mojo.

I can actually see the boner
in your avatar.

I'm getting worried.

[mojo]

hahaha

[Cogburn]

Back in the late 80s, government computers had a "welcome" message. It was successfully argued in court that saying "Welcome" was an invitation.

As a result, all government computers since then have had a warning message that is presented prior to login, and states that unauthorized access is prohibited.

Nice try.

[mojo]

so if you have a welcome mat on your front step i could just walk on in and read through personal documents in your desk?

[mojo]

thats a rhetorical question btw.

:D

[Lexion]

thats a rhetorical question btw.

:D

Fuck me running ?

[pack3tg0st]

No one entered anyone's house mojo...

He just accessed the computer via a connection that the gov't set up...

Its like they tell us when surfing the internet... if you don't want it available online, don't put it there...

if you want to keep shit secret.... don't hook the computer up to the internet...

do you think the sheriff woudl feel bad for me if I left a trail of 100 dollar bills to my front door... then left the door unlocked?

No... they'd probably think I was a fuckin' retard...

which is about what I'd think of someone who puts information they want kept secret on a computer, hooks it up to the internet, and doesn't bother doing shit like changing the default passwords...

edit: the grammar... it burns.

[pack3tg0st]

rhetorical or no...

I fuckin' typed it...

so amkon's fuckin' getting it

:lol:

[Lexion]

5]qlJ3e7-utaY5]

[pack3tg0st]

you have got to be kidding me lex.

[Lexion]

I rarely kid.

Well, maaaaaaabeee


:D

[mojo]

... someone left the front door open and he walked in...



poor choice of terminology then pack in the context of your post that "he didnt really do anything wrong" and its all because he embarrassed some rich dudes?

[Lexion]

Again, who cares if he hacked.

It's his claims we are questioning.

[mur]

Again, who cares if he hacked.

It's his claims we are questioning.

Exactly

[pack3tg0st]

If he's lying... he just wants attention... and you guys are giving it to him...

If he's telling the truth... than all this discussion is meaningless...

[mur]

He is lying to avoid extradition.

If he is telling the truth?

I guess it depends on which statement he has made.

He has contradicted himself repeatedly.

I'm inclined not to believe anything he says, based on documented self serving lies.

[hp]

It's the 'no sketch, didn't happen' rule. brilliant work on his part.

[Chorlton]

I don't have problem with Gary breaking the law. I have a problem with him using a defense of lies.

Lies from one of ufology affect the whole of ufology.
Ufology's credibility has taken another hit, self inflicted as usual.

Now hold on here. You yourself were seriously complicit in damaging the credibility of Ufology and aiding and abetting others to likewise damage its credibility when you were on OM.
You assisted happily in getting me banned when I was trying to prove Gridkeeper and Barry King were both Hoaxers and Fraudsters. It was you that was demanding I prove Gridlkeepers pictures as frauds rather then him providing any evidence to support his Hoaxes and Lies.
Yes you apologised but that does not negate the damge you did. Its still there on OM.
McKinnons effect uopn Ufology, in my opinion has actually done the opposite to what you state.
He found nothing worthy of note. Therefore he did little damage.

[Chorlton]

fuck you. two small words that sum up my attitude towards america-firsters.

Hardly, I'm a truth firster. I know the truth hurts, but ufology can't demand the truth when it doesn't hold itself accountable to it.

Let him who is without sin, cast the first stone...Murnut

[mur]

I didn't ban you and I did not try to get you banned.

I didn't tell lies, I made a mistake.

Me without sin? Hardly. I'm just following in your footsteps.

You had an opinion about Gridkeeper.

I have an opinion about Mckinnon

[skunk]

Once a bitch always a bitch mur, no remedying that. Best to carry on with your own business and tell chorlton to eat a dick, which he may end up enjoying after all.

[pack3tg0st]

Let him who is without stones cast the first sin

:)

[boycotteverything]

You had an opinion about Gridkeeper.

I have an opinion about Mckinnon(As I recall you also had opinions about Gridkeeper. More on this in a moment.) But one thing you can say about Gridkeeper- he singlehandedly turned Chorlton into an internet superhero. His was the most complete and utter destruction of a ufer icon that I've ever seen- and I've seen a few... . I know you changed your mind about GK and I've read your many apologies on various forums to that effect. But in all the remorse there was one missing element- an explanation. Did you conclude that GK was a hoaxer, a fabricator? And, if so, what led you to this conclusion? You stated on many occasions prior to your Damascus moment that you were maintaining an open mind about his claims. What convinced you to finally foreclose him?

Now in the packecied McKinnon threads I recall you stating that Gary Mc. deserved to go to jail if for no other reason than for doing great damage to Ufology. Do you feel the same way about Walson?
Lexion wrote:
Again, who cares if he hacked.

It's his claims we are questioning.to which you replied-
Exactly

It's then for his claims that he must be punished? Then why not Walson? And why not John Lear? Why not Leslie Keen? Why not Brendan Burton? Why not every commentator in this field who makes, in your opinion, fraudulent claims? Why is your special animus reserved for Gary McKinnon? Inquiring minds want to know...

[pack3tg0st]

Damn BE...

Its pretty early to see a bitch slapping of that magnitude lol

Smite.

(BTW... I don't understand if the hacking isn't a big deal... then why does this thread exist, and continue to exist?)

[boycotteverything]

I don't have a clue. Since everyone seems now to concede that the 'hacking' was irrelevant- then what's the problem? Damage to Ufology? Give me a fucking break. How is it possible to damage Ufology? hahahaha

[hp]

I don't have a clue. Since everyone seems now to concede that the 'hacking' was irrelevant- then what's the problem? Damage to Ufology? Give me a fucking break. How is it possible to damage Ufology? hahahaha

At this point, the only was is to supply some really evidence, which would point out how screwy it has been. Only the profiteers would see it as damage if it went against someone's theory. May be not, they would just jump ship and claim that was they view all along.

[mur]

[quote] You had an opinion about Gridkeeper.

I have an opinion about Mckinnon(As I recall you also had opinions about Gridkeeper. More on this in a moment.) But one thing you can say about Gridkeeper- he singlehandedly turned Chorlton into an internet superhero. His was the most complete and utter destruction of a ufer icon that I've ever seen- and I've seen a few... . I know you changed your mind about GK and I've read your many apologies on various forums to that effect. But in all the remorse there was one missing element- an explanation. Did you conclude that GK was a hoaxer, a fabricator? And, if so, what led you to this conclusion? You stated on many occasions prior to your Damascus moment that you were maintaining an open mind about his claims. What convinced you to finally foreclose him?

Now in the packecied McKinnon threads I recall you stating that Gary Mc. deserved to go to jail if for no other reason than for doing great damage to Ufology. Do you feel the same way about Walson?
Lexion wrote:
Again, who cares if he hacked.

It's his claims we are questioning.to which you replied-
Exactly

It's then for his claims that he must be punished? Then why not Walson? And why not John Lear? Why not Leslie Keen? Why not Brendan Burton? Why not every commentator in this field who makes, in your opinion, fraudulent claims? Why is your special animus reserved for Gary McKinnon? Inquiring minds want to know...[/quote:3k9hizwu]


Gridkeeper was never important to me. Yes, I gave Gridkeeper the benefit of the doubt.

No I don't believe Gridkeepers claims anymore.

I don't care one way or the other if Gary gets punished or not.

Hopefully he gets off.

My problem with the saga is that Gary and his supporters have misrepresented the facts.

The UK tabloids have contributed to this.

If you want Gary as your hero, fine.

Clearly, as I have explained, he is not mine.

Google murnut mckinnon

I must have explained it a thousand times.....er 347

Ufology does not need to stoop to disinfo.

[boycotteverything]

Ufology does not need to stoop to disinfo.Then why not Walson? And why not John Lear? Why not Leslie Keen? Why not Brendan Burton? Why not every commentator in this field who makes, in your opinion, fraudulent claims? Why is your special animus reserved for Gary McKinnon? Inquiring minds want to know...

Need I remind you that Ufology is already 98% disinfo?

http://www.ufowatchdog.com/shame.html

[mur]

Then why not Walson? And why not John Lear? Why not Leslie Keen? Why not Brendan Burton? Why not every commentator in this field who makes, in your opinion, fraudulent claims? Why is your special animus reserved for Gary McKinnon? Inquiring minds want to know...

Need I remind you that Ufology is already 98% disinfo?

http://www.ufowatchdog.com/shame.html

So more disinfo is good?

I have a problem with Mckinnon, and I posted it. So fucking what!

I have a problem with those folks also. But they are not the subject of this thread.

Kean in particular has severely disappointed me.

If someone wants to start a thread about Kean passing disinfo, I'll gladly tell you why

[boycotteverything]

So more disinfo is [s:20u8aqie]good[/s:20u8aqie] inevitable?fixt

now that's a point!

[Chorlton]

I didn't ban you and I did not try to get you banned.
But you sided with those demanding *I* provide evidence that Gridkeepers videos were NOT hoaxes, instead of askin Gridkeeper for his evidence, YOU also warned me, contributing to the fervour of the believers.

I didn't tell lies, I made a mistake.

A Mistake that contributed to the continuance of the Hoaxer Gridkeepers presence on OM and his continued posting of hoaxes and lies. For that you should be ashamed

You had an opinion about Gridkeeper.

That wasnt an opinion at all. I proved he was posting lies and had posted lies on ATS and OM and that Simon Anderson was both Gridkeeper and John Lenard Walson. I was in the process of destroying Barry Kings long reign of Bullshit too untill you helped the others get me thrown off.
Congratulations in helping to continue their lies bullshit and hoaxes.

I have an opinion about Mckinnon
But no proof.
I had proof about Gridkeeper and King.

[Chorlton]

Gridkeeper was never important to me.
Yet you chose to stick your unknowledgeable nose into an ongoing thread where I was drawing him out and completely fucked it up?
Thanks for that


Yes, I gave Gridkeeper the benefit of the doubt.

Something one should NEVER do to anyone posting something so incredibly unverified.

No I don't believe Gridkeepers claims anymore.


Why? what suddenly changed your mind?

My problem with the saga is that Gary and his supporters have misrepresented the facts.

Just like Gridkeeper and Barry King misrepresented the facts you mean?
Selective in your choice of liars you mean ?


The UK tabloids have contributed to this.


And OM and you contributed to the continuance of Gridkeeper and Barry King.


Ufology does not need to stoop to disinfo.

Such fine, channeled ethics now eh?

[mur]

What the fuck do you want me to say Chuck?

I was wrong regarding Gridkeeper. How many times do you want me to say it?

I'm not responsible for you getting kicked off OM.

I have proved, in my opinion, Mckinnon is misrepresenting the facts surrounding his case.

He can stay in the UK. I don't care.

He can be your hero. I don't care.

It's my opinion that Gary's case has done more damage to ufology that Gridkeeper because of the publicity in the UK.

You disagree? I don't care.

There as been very little news in print regarding Mckinnon in the US.

Gridkeeper never made any news in print.

Folks in the ufo community have been parroting Mckinnons claims as facts. They aren't facts.

It may be unpopular for me to point that out....but I don't care.

[boycotteverything]

It may be unpopular for me to point that out....but I don't care.Yours is the most popular position. Nothing dangerous there. Actually- that's the problem I have with it. You still haven't said what changed your mind about GK. Was it Chorlton's proofs?

[Chorlton]

Gridkeeper was his own worst enemy. His story changed almost daily, He denied that Simon Anderson was JLW yet a simple dig around the web showed photo's by one, Simon Anderson, and then a video of the same thing by a John Lenard Walson. All of which was easily destroyed as they were allegedly the only people to see and video a UFO when over 20000 were watching the display.
Ive yet to dig up what Abby (Bambi) Parker has to do with this whole shebang but I'm working on it.
As for Barry King ? the man is a waste of space, a walking contradiction. I might post up some of his 'The Voice' bullshit if people want a really good larf.

[mur]

It may be unpopular for me to point that out....but I don't care.Yours is the most popular position. Nothing dangerous there. Actually- that's the problem I have with it. You still haven't said what changed your mind about GK. Was it Chorlton's proofs?

Amkon not with standing, The general response I have received online to my Mckinnon opinion is that I'm a paid govt shill.

I don't know what changed my opinion of Gridkeeper, Chorlton may have had something to do with it...or maybe I saw it at another website, or another poster somewhere like forgetomori. I certainly did see the wheels start to come off the gridkeeper hoax at OM. But I was not exactly his biggest supporter either.

I don't know. It was never really that important to me.

[boycotteverything]

... is that I'm a paid govt shill.
hahahahah shit, tell us something we didn't already know! fuck it. in the larger picture none of this matters squat.

[Chorlton]

But as UFO hoaxes go, it was Incredibly important
Just do a GooGle for Gridkeeper or FAST and you will see that Gridkeeper posted lnks to his stuff EVERYWHERE on earth
I knew about him from some of his other rubbish about churches being some sort of celestial powerpoints, then his stuff about Wiltshire then found him and his cracked mate James Casbolt sniffing around Peasmore. Then he started with the FAST stuff and I was on him like a fly on shit.
Problem was everyone took the stuff I had posted on other websites and used that, without doing any research themselves.
I dont like going public. I have kept a very low profile in the UFO world all my life but I simply could not tolerate the shit that Gridkeeper was putting out especially when he tried to make money from it. I informed the TV companies he was a Hoaxer and at the same time proved James Casbolt was an unstable paranoid hoaxer too. They were in it for the money.

[Cogburn]

Every time some numb-nuts gets in trouble and yells "UFO COVER UP!" we're going to go through this all over again.

Wanna get a bunch of folks on the internet to support your cause?

Tell 'em that aliens run the government and that they are out to get you.

[mur]

Now I remember something about a dispute over money with a film maker...I forget at what website this occurred. Probably OM. It became evident money was a main concern.

[Chorlton]

Now I remember something about a dispute over money with a film maker...I forget at what website this occurred. Probably OM. It became evident money was a main concern.

No it happened on ATS. I blew the gaff about him asking £1 million for his shit.

There were two problems with money
One was with Jose Escamilla the 'Rods' filmmaker.
The other was with a UK TV company who Gridkeeper tried to con into buying his shit.
He even admitted that they told him he needed a lot more publicity for his stuff before they would pick it up which was why he then set out on a mission to spam his site absolutley everywhere on the web.

Gridkeeper then tried blagging money from people, telling them if he had a better camera and telescope he could get better results.

Now he's trying to push his cheapshit Band-in a box 'music'
Its rubbish.

[boycotteverything]

Hot Rod Jose wasn't a bad show. But I'm a Barry King guy now. Thanks.

[Chorlton]

Could you buy him a handkerchief please, that perpetually runny nose and his continual sniffing really pisses me off.

[Lexion]

Hot Rod Jose

:lol:

[boycotteverything]

Oh- I see you know of him...

[Lexion]

Yeah.

Never heard him called
that, though.

Pretty funny.

[mojo]

Now I remember something about a dispute over money with a film maker...I forget at what website this occurred. Probably OM. It became evident money was a main concern.

No it happened on ATS. I blew the gaff about him asking £1 million for his shit.

There were two problems with money
One was with Jose Escamilla the 'Rods' filmmaker.
The other was with a UK TV company who Gridkeeper tried to con into buying his shit.
He even admitted that they told him he needed a lot more publicity for his stuff before they would pick it up which was why he then set out on a mission to spam his site absolutley everywhere on the web.

Gridkeeper then tried blagging money from people, telling them if he had a better camera and telescope he could get better results.

Now he's trying to push his cheapshit Band-in a box 'music'
Its rubbish.

yeah i remember that thread.
didn't escamilla get booted from ats as well not long after, i think he had a run in with one of the amigo's pet's.

[Cogburn]

Escamilla is a fucktard that has no English language reading comprehension skills.

I can only assume this is so, because "Moon Rising" actually exists.

[KIWI]

no quote box to put a cut-n-paste from a previous post??

[KIWI]

I have kept a very low profile in the UFO world all my life .

so being 5ft 4 must have turned out a blessing?

( still finding my way round the new outfit Chorlton......the above is just a trial "quote-slur" not to taken seriously)

[Chorlton]

yeah i remember that thread.
didn't escamilla get booted from ats as well not long after, i think he had a run in with one of the amigo's pet's.

Yes he continued posting the same crap over and over, despite being warned, then someone had enough and booted him, but, strangely left Gridkeeper there for a little longer.
Personally I dont think it was actually Escamilla posting.

[boycotteverything]

seems to me that you went on about moths for months until someone caught one of the little fuckers and turned it over and discovered moth balls thereby proving your theory. feel free to correct me if i'm wrong here.

http://www.skepticworld.com/cryptozoology/images/flying-rod.jpg

[skunk]

no quote box to put a cut-n-paste from a previous post??

Press the quote button?

Also there's a multi quote button on everyone's post.

You can select a few different posts (I don't know what the limit is) and they will all show up when you click post reply.

[skunk]

no quote box to put a cut-n-paste from a previous post??

so being 5ft 4 must have turned out a blessing?

( still finding my way round the new outfit Chorlton......the above is just a trial "quote-slur" not to taken seriously)

Yes he continued posting the same crap over and over, despite being warned, then someone had enough and booted him, but, strangely left Gridkeeper there for a little longer.
Personally I dont think it was actually Escamilla posting.

Multiquote test

[KIWI]

Press the quote button?

Also there's a multi quote button on everyone's post.

You can select a few different posts (I don't know what the limit is) and they will all show up when you click post reply.

yeah skunk.....Its a case of quote the whole txt then delete what ya dont want, thats what I did anyway...worked fine.....not to good at change


and while wer'e at it.....no wanking bear??

and the smileys cannot be added inline with the text? a bit limiting when heavy emphisis is required

[Cogburn]

Because AmKon has adopted a minimum character post rule.

[Cogburn]

News articles will soon require 500 characters of your own thoughts.

[KIWI]

Because AmKon has adopted a minimum character post rule.

fucken facists!

who is "Amkon"?????????

Im part of Amkon, I aint adopted no fucking "minimum rule"

I smell nazis....crank up the "Bradley" Lex...wer'e goin in !!

[skunk]

Because AmKon has adopted a minimum character post rule.

VB default setting, we should be able to change it.

[Cogburn]

I made a whine thread.

I'll keep it there from now on. ;)

[pack3tg0st]

seriously?

there's a problem with a 1 char-limit?

[boycotteverything]

OK. and by the way- free Gary. one character at a time.

[pack3tg0st]

I don't think I can force the software to recognize quotes as text... I might be able to... but I'd have to dig to find it...

but seriously... doesn't even need to be a comment about the quote... just insert a smiley... or even a "."

[hp]

Yea, I figured that out.

[boycotteverything]

take your fucking whining to the proper thread. the time to complain was before this thing was instituted, not after. jesus tapdancin christ who gives a flying frog fuck about 1 letter posts? it's done. pack did an amazing job. now just fucking live with it.

[hp]

Remove, inappropriate - my behavior

[Lexion]

jesus tapdancin christ who gives a flying frog fuck about 1 letter posts? it's done. pack did an amazing job.

Where is that Mr. Wizard pic ?

[boycotteverything]

hang on. i find.

[boycotteverything]

'holy shit, mr. pack! that's neat!

http://www.demonbabies.com/blog/mrwizard.jpg

[Lexion]

Thank ya !

[pack3tg0st]

ok... so I looked for the picture too....

and I found this one instead....

something.... isn't... quite right here....

http://jmsoul.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/30468159.jpg

[boycotteverything]

looks like mr wizard's about to choke johnny for fucking up his lava lamp.

[skunk]

Remove, inappropriate - my behavior

Never. :ban:

[boycotteverything]

Remove, inappropriate - my behaviorThat's better. Now stay the hell outa this thread unless you got something smart to say like-Where is that Mr. Wizard pic ?